Discussion:
ELM = JAVASCRIPT REINVENTED (PART 1)
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t***@imaginarycloud.com
2017-10-23 18:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.

This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll be
summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.

Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.

https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/

Best,
TF
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Charles Scalfani
2017-10-24 16:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Back in the day when Java was all the rage, I used to ask 2 interview
questions of developers:


1. What do you love about Java?
2. What do you hate about Java?

I never cared what the answer was to #1. It turns out that they simply
listed all of the things that people who promoted Java mentioned,
write-once-run-anywhere, etc.

It was #2 that I was really interested in. Many developers couldn't think
of a single thing. That told me that they didn't know Java. At the time, I
could've talked for an hour about all the things that were wrong with Java
(and still are). Why? Because I really knew the language. And familiarity
breeds contempt.

This article feels like the answer to #1 by someone who really doesn't know
the language yet or at least hasn't built anything real or large with it.

Don't get me wrong I love Elm but it's not perfect (no language is).

I'd hope that your articles include the good, bad and the ugly. By doing
so, you will help more people understand if Elm is right for them in a
balanced way.
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll be
summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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John Orford
2017-10-25 09:19:52 UTC
Permalink
I think Elm is a very opinionated language - which lends itself to love &
hate : ) Which is a good thing - languages in which you can do anything and
everything are guey slimey things...
Post by Charles Scalfani
Back in the day when Java was all the rage, I used to ask 2 interview
1. What do you love about Java?
2. What do you hate about Java?
I never cared what the answer was to #1. It turns out that they simply
listed all of the things that people who promoted Java mentioned,
write-once-run-anywhere, etc.
It was #2 that I was really interested in. Many developers couldn't think
of a single thing. That told me that they didn't know Java. At the time, I
could've talked for an hour about all the things that were wrong with Java
(and still are). Why? Because I really knew the language. And familiarity
breeds contempt.
This article feels like the answer to #1 by someone who really doesn't
know the language yet or at least hasn't built anything real or large with
it.
Don't get me wrong I love Elm but it's not perfect (no language is).
I'd hope that your articles include the good, bad and the ugly. By doing
so, you will help more people understand if Elm is right for them in a
balanced way.
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:02:11 AM UTC-7,
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll
be summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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Peter Damoc
2017-10-25 10:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Reality is prickly-goo and gooey-prickles


Elm sins by seeing reality too much from a prickly point of view.
You can call this opinionated but if it is taken to an extreme, you get the
symptoms typical to a prickly system, the main one being the stifling of
creativity.
Creative people are gooey and they don't thrive in an environment that is
too prickly.

Also, businesses need gooey stuff because they deal with reality not with
some abstract world of ideas.
Post by John Orford
I think Elm is a very opinionated language - which lends itself to love &
hate : ) Which is a good thing - languages in which you can do anything and
everything are guey slimey things...
Post by Charles Scalfani
Back in the day when Java was all the rage, I used to ask 2 interview
1. What do you love about Java?
2. What do you hate about Java?
I never cared what the answer was to #1. It turns out that they simply
listed all of the things that people who promoted Java mentioned,
write-once-run-anywhere, etc.
It was #2 that I was really interested in. Many developers couldn't think
of a single thing. That told me that they didn't know Java. At the time, I
could've talked for an hour about all the things that were wrong with Java
(and still are). Why? Because I really knew the language. And familiarity
breeds contempt.
This article feels like the answer to #1 by someone who really doesn't
know the language yet or at least hasn't built anything real or large with
it.
Don't get me wrong I love Elm but it's not perfect (no language is).
I'd hope that your articles include the good, bad and the ugly. By doing
so, you will help more people understand if Elm is right for them in a
balanced way.
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:02:11 AM UTC-7,
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll
be summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvente
d-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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John Orford
2017-10-25 10:27:11 UTC
Permalink
that's v true - perhaps programmers are are too prone to idealism... but
then again, it's a perk of the job ; )
Post by Peter Damoc
Reality is prickly-goo and gooey-prickles
http://youtu.be/D4vHnM8WPvU
Elm sins by seeing reality too much from a prickly point of view.
You can call this opinionated but if it is taken to an extreme, you get
the symptoms typical to a prickly system, the main one being the stifling
of creativity.
Creative people are gooey and they don't thrive in an environment that is
too prickly.
Also, businesses need gooey stuff because they deal with reality not with
some abstract world of ideas.
Post by John Orford
I think Elm is a very opinionated language - which lends itself to love &
hate : ) Which is a good thing - languages in which you can do anything and
everything are guey slimey things...
Post by Charles Scalfani
Back in the day when Java was all the rage, I used to ask 2 interview
1. What do you love about Java?
2. What do you hate about Java?
I never cared what the answer was to #1. It turns out that they simply
listed all of the things that people who promoted Java mentioned,
write-once-run-anywhere, etc.
It was #2 that I was really interested in. Many developers couldn't
think of a single thing. That told me that they didn't know Java. At the
time, I could've talked for an hour about all the things that were wrong
with Java (and still are). Why? Because I really knew the language. And
familiarity breeds contempt.
This article feels like the answer to #1 by someone who really doesn't
know the language yet or at least hasn't built anything real or large with
it.
Don't get me wrong I love Elm but it's not perfect (no language is).
I'd hope that your articles include the good, bad and the ugly. By doing
so, you will help more people understand if Elm is right for them in a
balanced way.
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:02:11 AM UTC-7,
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll
be summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
blog: http://damoc.ro/
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roovo
2017-10-25 19:20:41 UTC
Permalink
...whereas for me working with elm is a pleasure because of its
simplicity. I subscribe to the sorts of ideas in articles like: Creativity:
How Constraints Drive Genius
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/groupthink/2013/07/12/creativity-how-constraints-drive-genius/#2feac2fa3d89>.
I've produced creative things in plain old javascript (and other languages)
but doing so in elm is so much more fun, interesting - and productive.
Post by John Orford
that's v true - perhaps programmers are are too prone to idealism... but
then again, it's a perk of the job ; )
Post by Peter Damoc
Reality is prickly-goo and gooey-prickles
http://youtu.be/D4vHnM8WPvU
Elm sins by seeing reality too much from a prickly point of view.
You can call this opinionated but if it is taken to an extreme, you get
the symptoms typical to a prickly system, the main one being the stifling
of creativity.
Creative people are gooey and they don't thrive in an environment that is
too prickly.
Also, businesses need gooey stuff because they deal with reality not with
some abstract world of ideas.
Post by John Orford
I think Elm is a very opinionated language - which lends itself to love
& hate : ) Which is a good thing - languages in which you can do anything
and everything are guey slimey things...
Post by Charles Scalfani
Back in the day when Java was all the rage, I used to ask 2 interview
1. What do you love about Java?
2. What do you hate about Java?
I never cared what the answer was to #1. It turns out that they simply
listed all of the things that people who promoted Java mentioned,
write-once-run-anywhere, etc.
It was #2 that I was really interested in. Many developers couldn't
think of a single thing. That told me that they didn't know Java. At the
time, I could've talked for an hour about all the things that were wrong
with Java (and still are). Why? Because I really knew the language. And
familiarity breeds contempt.
This article feels like the answer to #1 by someone who really doesn't
know the language yet or at least hasn't built anything real or large with
it.
Don't get me wrong I love Elm but it's not perfect (no language is).
I'd hope that your articles include the good, bad and the ugly. By
doing so, you will help more people understand if Elm is right for them in
a balanced way.
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:02:11 AM UTC-7,
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital
product development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and
we'll be summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
blog: http://damoc.ro/
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Erkal Selman
2017-10-30 10:09:17 UTC
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Hi Pedro,

I liked the blog post but do you think that "ELM = JAVASCRIPT REINVENTED"
is a good title?
Look at the meaning of
reinvention: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/reinvention
I don't think that this is what you are telling in the post.
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll be
summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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Erkal Selman
2017-10-30 10:11:44 UTC
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ok, maybe I am wrong. The british dictionary says:
to replace (a product, etc) with an entirely new version
Post by Erkal Selman
Hi Pedro,
I liked the blog post but do you think that "ELM = JAVASCRIPT REINVENTED"
is a good title?
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/reinvention
I don't think that this is what you are telling in the post.
Post by t***@imaginarycloud.com
Hi,
I'm a developer and founder of an agency specialised in digital product
development.
This summer we've decided to do some experimentation with Elm and we'll
be summarising the findings in a series of two blogposts.
Here is the first one. Comments are welcome.
https://www.imaginarycloud.com/blog/elm-javascript-reinvented-1-overview/
Best,
TF
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Richard Feldman
2017-11-03 04:08:37 UTC
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Yeah it's a bit inaccurate to say Elm is JS reinvented because Elm never used JS as a starting point. 😅

I think there's a more plausible case to be made that Elm is "Standard ML Reinvented" - since JS is only Elm's (current) compilation target.

Any ways in which Elm's design resembles JS are almost certainly coincidental!
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'Rupert Smith' via Elm Discuss
2017-11-03 09:35:39 UTC
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Post by Richard Feldman
Any ways in which Elm's design resembles JS are almost certainly coincidental!
No programmers were harmed in the making of this movie...
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